Conversation - part 1

How can we build understanding with those who profoundly disagree with us?

This post begins a series of posts in order to review an online conversation with Derek that began in January of 2020. As I have reflected on this discussion over many months, my intent was always to invite him to work through this conversation again, contributing his ideas and commentary, which would give a more complete context to the thought process behind the words we actually used. But now, going again to the YouTube entry where this conversation took place, Derek has deleted all of his entries and so there is no way for me to contact him. This makes me very sad. I don’t know what has happened to him, but I pray that he has found answers that satisfy  his deepest needs. Maybe my interaction helped with this and maybe not, God knows.

It began with a random video that was a negative response to a video on the value of the 10 Commandments. The video response itself was nearly worthless, so I don’t recommend it. Neither do I particularly recommend the video on the 10 Commandments posted by Denis Prager, though he does have some very valuable insights on this topic. As I looked through a few of the comments that day, one conversation caught my attention. If you are interested in the thread, you can access it on Youtube here. 

Derek was responding to a comment by Matthew who had tried to highlight the ​​differences between covetousness, jealousy and greed. Derek and Matthew had interacted briefly but Derek was digging deeper with the following questions. Unfortunately, I did not save those earlier posts from Derek.

His original questions were as follows…

1) How can god be moral if he created, actively maintains, and keeps occupied, hell, even when it is the case that it's solely for the thought-crime of unbelief? What about his kill count that is so much larger than that of Satan himself, as stated in the Bible? How is this "loving"?

2) How do the concepts of original sin and inherited sin make any sense? Or, if you would rather answer this more precise question, why EXACTLY do you believe that babies, long before they can retain memories, let alone understand what is meant by "good" "evil" "god" "original sin" "satan", etc..., are destined for eternal damnation from the get-go, just because of some guy making an honest mistake (didn't know evil from good) in the ancient past?

3) As I demonstrated in my previous comment, faith and evidence cannot both be tools of the Christian, by definition of these terms. Which, then, do you choose as your foundation? Honestly, if it is faith, we have no reason to speak, because I would agree that faith is perhaps the most true reason that you believe. If you choose evidence, then you must do two things in turn: explain why the bible emphasizes faith so strongly (in contrast to your evidence-based viewpoint), and show me what demonstrable evidence, physical or logical, you have in favor of your beliefs.

Commentary:

When I wrote this, my intention was to communicate the value of his questions, which seem to be sincere and indicate that he is looking for real answers to real questions. He is concerned about protecting the innocent, defining morality, faith and the ultimate source of knowledge or truth. We can see that each of these questions cannot be adequately addressed by hard data or science and demand a recognition of something outside of our sensory experiences to even be able to ask the questions in the first place! But I tried to take the questions at face value without attacking any misconceptions. I wanted to show him that a discussion of these topics could be done politely and without accusations in order to invite deeper understanding between us and maybe even friendship.

My response:

It looks like Matthew has not responded to you - so in the interest of continuing your reasoned and polite discussion, I'd be happy to share my thoughts.

First: The problem with the whole discussion here is that we all live with a concept of justice and fairness that is built into our western culture. If you look at primitive tribes now or in ancient times, specifically those with little or no exposure to a biblical view of the world, then you see that these assumptions are definitely not universal.

So, if you will allow me to address your 3 questions above, here are a few ideas. You are welcome to respond or disagree because I know that we come from different perspectives on this...

1 - Hell may be a lot of things but it is primarily "separation from God". The imagined torture or punishment of hell as a tool or creation of God is not possible because it is simply where God is not present and therefore does not intervene. An eternal hell is simply a result of my choice to pay for my own sin and not accept the payment available through Jesus' death. Hell is my choice so no one can ever say that God chooses hell for someone. BTW: if you don't believe there is a hell or a God, then this is probably irrelevant information. As for death, everyone faces it. There is no escape from it but we certainly can and do hurry it along for ourselves and for others. There is no evidence that a "kill count" is higher for anyone (except for certain humans in history that you can probably name).

2 - This is directly connected to the first issue - a faulty understanding of what hell is. Babies and anyone else without the mental capacity to choose right from wrong are not destined for hell, thanks to God's grace and mercy. Original sin is simply our inherited disposition to choose our own way and separate ourselves from God (and from everyone else). I see this in my tendency to do what is not good and hide it even from myself.

3 - Faith and evidence always go hand in hand because no one can ever fully know something that is outside the capacity to measure or test. Evidence points to the truth about my wife's love for me and I also believe (have faith) that she loves me and I act on that belief. Historical evidence, eyewitness accounts and the lives of those eyewitness afterward point to the resurrection of Christ from the dead, but it also demands faith because it is outside the workings of the natural world.

I've provided brief answers according to my current understanding of the Bible. Hopefully I will have better answers in the future, but please accept these for now ;)

Questions for you:

What do you see behind his questions? What is his motivation? Which perspective is closer to your beliefs and how would you support it? Could I have provided a better invitation for continued discussion? What do you think his response will be?