How can we build understanding with those who profoundly disagree with us?
Although Derek answered right away to my post, his tone was still quite accusatory and so he didn’t provide any real sense of gratefulness for the chance to discuss these ideas. As I read his post, I tried to consider why he communicates in this manner and what his previous experiences might have been to lead to this attitude. Of course, there are also some weak arguments and historical misinterpretations, but that is normal and just shows a lack of maturity and knowledge.Another brief comment... Notice that he did not really respond to my point about the resurrection of Christ. He is happy to debate my faith in my wife's love for me but is not willing to concede that historical evidence of the resurrection is actually evidence of something that is scientifically unexplainable. This is probably the heart of the whole debate and the point where each one of us must make a choice either to accept the claims of Christ or to deny them. However, it does not mean that we should stop the conversation. On the contrary, engaging with kindness, asking good questions and graciously pointing out truth is the very least we can do for those who do not agree with us.
Moreover, what evidence do you have of the claim that Christianity itself has anything to do with modern concepts of equality and fairness? What about the fact that Christianity has been, and in many ways continues to be, the direct enemy of scientific progress and social equality? What about the wars that have been fought in the name of christianity?
As for the barbaric concept of 'hell', would you ever personally decide to torture your child eternally if they didn't obey your commands? Because that is what your god is doing, according to the bible. If you believe in predestination it's worse, because then god is knowingly setting people up to go to hell just for fun (god decides to make people disobey him before they are even born, just because it pleases him).
Let me address one of the fundamental issues of Christianity which typically gets ignored. You state, "faith and evidence go hand in hand" which is quite interesting to me. If you consider the definitions of "faith" and "evidence", you will find that if one has evidence, then they cannot have faith. Likewise, if one has faith then by definition they cannot have evidence. So, pick one. The "faith" you describe having in your wife's love is not the same "faith" in god that is described in the bible. The bible goes out of its way to define faith as 'belief without evidence', while the 'faith' you have in your wife's love is better described as belief, given the fact that supporting evidence exists.
You can say you believe in god one way or another, but saying you have 'faith in' and 'evidence for' something is a logical contradiction.
In my written response I tried to bring in a broader perspective from Scripture about what it means to love, to learn and to take responsibility for our decisions before God and before others. I also dug in a bit to try to demand some accountability from Derek in his own process of learning. There was far too much to deal with here and so my response ended up to be quite long.
God has provided everything we need in Christ. He is the evidence of God's unfathomable love for each of us no matter who we are. He is also the evidence of God's righteous judgement on sin, having received the punishment for sin in my place. Take a look at Romans chapter 5. Again, separation from God is my choice, not God's.
We have to talk about justice as well because, in a closed materialistic view of the universe, no one ever receives the justice they deserve. What can you say to someone who was abused constantly by their father or mother? What can you say to someone who watched all their relatives tortured and killed in concentration camps? What can you say to someone who has no remorse or regret after killing others just because they don't like their skin color or their religion? No one ever gets the punishment or the compensation for the pain and hurt we receive or cause. Justice must be available, but it is an ideal that is not possible outside of an eternal perspective (where the eternal, spiritual reality is an active and integrated aspect of our reality).
But please don't tire me with the obvious fallacy that Christianity is the enemy of scientific progress and social equality. People are the problem and those who oppose science (knowledge of the material world for the purpose of responsible stewardship of that world) and equality (that every person has God-given value and potential) are certainly not "loving God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves". And wars are usually an issue of pride and selfishness, irregardless of supposed religious claims or Marxist ideology. The one exception to violence is the claim that you are protecting a people group from the violence of their oppressors, but this is almost never done with pure motives.
I'm disappointed that you don't see the correlation between faith and evidence. It is simply not true that they are contradictory or that the Bible defines faith as "belief without evidence". Of course we need to define what evidence means. Do you mean "that which is possible to physically measure or test"? Or do you mean "that which can be shown as logically true"? Dependence on logic is itself an act of faith, especially for those who "believe" that logic is even possible from an evolutionary perspective where matter is "god" and there is no designer or mind behind what exists.
Beyond this, we have the difficulty of our very limited knowledge and understanding of the material universe. Thinking that our understanding is comprehensive or that the material universe is the only explanation or the full explanation of “all that is”, is very dangerous. I’m not confident that I have enough evidence for anything but I still have to function as a husband, a father, a son, a friend, a student, a teacher and in many other contexts in the areas of philosophy, music, health, economics, education, emotions, commitment, self-control, etc. “Faith” in this sense is the living out of my beliefs based on my current understanding of the world - everyone does this, whether or not they admit it, and it is not wrong or contradictory. You certainly have your beliefs and you will act on them, filtering new information that you collect based on how each piece of data fits into your current beliefs. It will take a real transformation or significant event in your life (or mine) to change our belief structure and move us in a completely new direction.
I've enjoyed interacting with you on this and you present some good questions, even if they are quite common to a materialistic perspective of the world. So I encourage you to dig deeper and I will certainly do the same!
This was his 1st post in direct response to me:
The concepts of justice and fairness do not come from Christianity. Any example of "justness" you can give me will almost surely come from a pre-existing culture that wasn't exposed to Christianity.Moreover, what evidence do you have of the claim that Christianity itself has anything to do with modern concepts of equality and fairness? What about the fact that Christianity has been, and in many ways continues to be, the direct enemy of scientific progress and social equality? What about the wars that have been fought in the name of christianity?
As for the barbaric concept of 'hell', would you ever personally decide to torture your child eternally if they didn't obey your commands? Because that is what your god is doing, according to the bible. If you believe in predestination it's worse, because then god is knowingly setting people up to go to hell just for fun (god decides to make people disobey him before they are even born, just because it pleases him).
Let me address one of the fundamental issues of Christianity which typically gets ignored. You state, "faith and evidence go hand in hand" which is quite interesting to me. If you consider the definitions of "faith" and "evidence", you will find that if one has evidence, then they cannot have faith. Likewise, if one has faith then by definition they cannot have evidence. So, pick one. The "faith" you describe having in your wife's love is not the same "faith" in god that is described in the bible. The bible goes out of its way to define faith as 'belief without evidence', while the 'faith' you have in your wife's love is better described as belief, given the fact that supporting evidence exists.
You can say you believe in god one way or another, but saying you have 'faith in' and 'evidence for' something is a logical contradiction.
Commentary:
Let's deal with the concept of justice a bit. There are many examples of justice in early cultures but all of them are based on the privileges or rights of certain people over others. Males had privilege over females, owners over slaves, adults over children, and so forth. The uniqueness of biblical justice is incredibly clear in the Mosaic Law. One example is the right to punish children. Before Leviticus, it was always the right of the parent to kill their own child if they disobeyed, if they brought shame to the family or if they did not meet certain physical requirments such as gender. This is even true of later cultures such as the Romans who would leave any unwanted child exposed until they died. Mosaic Law forbid the killing of children by demading that the parents first bring the child before the assembly with their accusation. The assembly would then confirm or deny the parent’s accusation and initiate the killing of the child. Note that there is no record of this ever happening anywhere in the biblical or historical record! The consequence is that accountability exists for both the child and the parent. This stands in sharp contrast to the practice of the Egyptians (who demanded the death of every Israelite male), the Cannanites (who practiced child sacrifice to Molech) and even current practices in traditional Muslim culture and the killing of the pre-born through abortion.In my written response I tried to bring in a broader perspective from Scripture about what it means to love, to learn and to take responsibility for our decisions before God and before others. I also dug in a bit to try to demand some accountability from Derek in his own process of learning. There was far too much to deal with here and so my response ended up to be quite long.
My response:
Thanks so much for your ideas. I'm not sure how much further we will get with this discussion, but I'm willing to extend it a little out of my concern for you. It makes me sad that people are not able to see the strong correlation between correction, discipline and love. This is at the core of your comments on hell but extends to almost every aspect of learning and relationships. When you truly love someone, you provide a setting in which they will grow and take responsibility for their own life and their own growth. I do this all the time as a father and as a teacher. I do all I can to provide the information that is needed, the setting in which to learn and the guidance and support for growth in a relationship of trust. But it is up to my students and my boys to take ownership of the learning process. A beautiful example of this is found in Isaiah 55 "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and let your soul delight itself in abundance."God has provided everything we need in Christ. He is the evidence of God's unfathomable love for each of us no matter who we are. He is also the evidence of God's righteous judgement on sin, having received the punishment for sin in my place. Take a look at Romans chapter 5. Again, separation from God is my choice, not God's.
We have to talk about justice as well because, in a closed materialistic view of the universe, no one ever receives the justice they deserve. What can you say to someone who was abused constantly by their father or mother? What can you say to someone who watched all their relatives tortured and killed in concentration camps? What can you say to someone who has no remorse or regret after killing others just because they don't like their skin color or their religion? No one ever gets the punishment or the compensation for the pain and hurt we receive or cause. Justice must be available, but it is an ideal that is not possible outside of an eternal perspective (where the eternal, spiritual reality is an active and integrated aspect of our reality).
But please don't tire me with the obvious fallacy that Christianity is the enemy of scientific progress and social equality. People are the problem and those who oppose science (knowledge of the material world for the purpose of responsible stewardship of that world) and equality (that every person has God-given value and potential) are certainly not "loving God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves". And wars are usually an issue of pride and selfishness, irregardless of supposed religious claims or Marxist ideology. The one exception to violence is the claim that you are protecting a people group from the violence of their oppressors, but this is almost never done with pure motives.
I'm disappointed that you don't see the correlation between faith and evidence. It is simply not true that they are contradictory or that the Bible defines faith as "belief without evidence". Of course we need to define what evidence means. Do you mean "that which is possible to physically measure or test"? Or do you mean "that which can be shown as logically true"? Dependence on logic is itself an act of faith, especially for those who "believe" that logic is even possible from an evolutionary perspective where matter is "god" and there is no designer or mind behind what exists.
Beyond this, we have the difficulty of our very limited knowledge and understanding of the material universe. Thinking that our understanding is comprehensive or that the material universe is the only explanation or the full explanation of “all that is”, is very dangerous. I’m not confident that I have enough evidence for anything but I still have to function as a husband, a father, a son, a friend, a student, a teacher and in many other contexts in the areas of philosophy, music, health, economics, education, emotions, commitment, self-control, etc. “Faith” in this sense is the living out of my beliefs based on my current understanding of the world - everyone does this, whether or not they admit it, and it is not wrong or contradictory. You certainly have your beliefs and you will act on them, filtering new information that you collect based on how each piece of data fits into your current beliefs. It will take a real transformation or significant event in your life (or mine) to change our belief structure and move us in a completely new direction.
I've enjoyed interacting with you on this and you present some good questions, even if they are quite common to a materialistic perspective of the world. So I encourage you to dig deeper and I will certainly do the same!
Questions for you:
How have we come to our modern concept of justice and why is it so important to us? How would you address the claim that Christianity is the enemy of scientific progress? Do you see a contradiction between faith and evidence? Why or why not?
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